Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

  • This, and every other screw-up in the same vein, is why those of us old enough to remember the Halloween documents don't buy the whole "new Microsoft" thing.

    Want to get me to try Edge? Great -- instead of a passive-aggressive ad, try telling me how it's better than Firefox and why I'd like to use it instead. What will it get me? Better privacy? Better performance? Better development tools?

    Cynically, it's amazing that Microsoft collects so much personal data about each user -- and yet its "target" ads are hopelessly generic and tasteless.

    Also, leaving the matter of whether or not I should even be seeing ads after I paid for the damn thing aside, the company that brought us Internet Explorer is the last one that should crack jokes about other browsers, even if they're good (which this one isn't).

  • Has anyone here actually looked at the "anti-Firefox" ad in question? It's literally a tile that says "Still using Firefox? Edge is here!". I'm not really sure what we expected here. This is about the same as a browser asking you to make it default when you open it. All big companies do weird anti competitive things. This isn't one of those things. I know I'll likely get downvoted for this opinion, but to many commenters here saying things like "this is why I don't believe in the new Microsoft or that Microsoft has changed", I'm not entirely sure how some meh ad telling you to switch your browser counteracts things like SQL Server on Linux or Azure supporting Linux VMs, or Microsoft's purchase of github, or .net core being cross platform, etc. I don't generally care to support a large company, nor am I an active developer or user in the microsoft stack, but the over reaction is a bit absurd.

    Does anyone who uses Firefox realize for a long while they were primarily funded by having Google pay them to be the default search engine?

  • Reminder that “New” Microsoft Edge is just Chrone with different spyware. So yeah, I’m still using Firefox thanks.

  • Microsoft doing shady stuff again.

    It's really a shame. The engineering that the teams at Microsoft put to the kernel and the actual operating system at large is amazing.

    But then some Product Management division decides to shove this shit down people's throat and, for me at least, ruins all the fun of what would is otherwise an amazing piece of an operating system.

    I paid for an operating system, just let me use the damn thing in peace will you ...

  • I dread the web we will get if Firefox dies. Could you imagine the only major browser being created by the largest advertiser?

  • Back to the anti-competitive behavior that got them in trouble years ago.

    Someone inside Microsoft at a senior level needs to intervene here with the marketing teams and tell them to stop.

  • I’m certainly less triggered by this textual ad than Candy Crush Saga next the start menu even with my goddamn Pro license.

    Also it’s quite odd that Firefox is singled out.

  • Yes, still using Firefox because Edge is complete shite. Thank you for asking. And now please remove yourself, unnecessary and unhelpful start menu.

  • Does anyone know enough to comment on how this jives with the settlement that Microsoft reached with the EU around 2010 over accusations of leveraging their monopoly in operating systems to drive user choice in browsers?

  • The prominence of the ad tells you how important browsers are both to revenue streams and computing experience.

    So many apps are now delivered over the web the OS is becoming increasingly irrelevant.

    The rise of the web has done more for the viability of desktop linux than anything else.

  • The old Edge is one of the best Epub readers I have ever used.

    The new Edge, I have no reason at all to use it over Firefox. I hope no banking website makes it necessary to use Edge, as it happened with previous Microsoft browsers.

  • One of the many reasons why I hate Windows 10. Just get out of my way and let me use my computer how I want.

    I'd put on my "smug Linux user" hat but to be honest my distro of choice (Ubuntu) has Amazon search integrated by default. The only saving grace is that it can be easily, completely, and permanently removed with just a couple of commands.

    Seriously considering a Macbook for my next computer at this point.

  • It is the Microsoft sleight of hand. One hand is showing you want you want to see; Open Source initiatives, developer glad-handing, etc. While the other hand does this.

  • I love Firefox, I use it on every OS. I do use Chrome for accessing my RStudio server because the performance is significantly better. Chrome on Android also feels better than Firefox on Android but I use both interchangeably. I use Edge for reading PDFs on my windows PC because it is usually convenient and somewhat infrequent.

    Im not entirely convinced why, but think very strongly that it is important to diversify your software and hardware solutions. Additionally it seems prudent that one company doesn't own the full stack, this pushes me away from Edge and Safari.

  • I recently got a similar "suggestion", see [0]. I was super mad, because I have turned the "show suggestions in start menu" setting turned off, so it felt like it's disrespectign my settings

    [0] https://metalhead.club/system/media_attachments/files/001/94...

  • My god if apple did something like this people would burn cities down. Why do people still trust Microsoft when their OS is literally a native advertising and tracking tool now

  • This is pretty sad, but Apple was doing this as well. Less mean tho. But at every restart of Chrome, I had a notification to use Safari.

    https://twitter.com/mxwllt/status/882190696224083968

  • Weird end to the article. Seems Microsoft is paying some social media shills?

  • All of you that keep telling me I should get over it and accept Nadella as a 'new kind of CEO' compared to Ballmer and Gates please explain yourselves. Do you really believe that this sort of thing happens without an OK from the top? Do you really believe that MS can be trusted, that GitHub really is in the best hands that it could be in and that we should let bygones be bygones because MS has changed its ways?

  • >Many of those who commented in the linked reddit thread actually praise Microsoft Edge, explaining that they already installed the new browser, and it’s just as good as Chrome or Firefox.

    Completely organic too, I presume.

  • I pretty much gave up on Windows over a decade ago. After years and years of doing this and that to prevent snooping, I finally had enough.

    I did keep a Win7 VM, however, in order to use Excel and Word for work. But I migrated all personal stuff to various Linux machines and VMs.

    I've mostly used Debian. For transient VMs, I mostly use stock Gnome. But also XFCE, which is light and cute, and is the new default for Whonix. Mirimir's main VM runs Bunsen Labs Helium, which is basically OpenBox, with a dock across the top, Conky, lots of shortcut keys, and right-click menu. Also pretty light, and uncluttered.

    But I don't really care that much how stuff looks. As long as it doesn't interfere with usability. And I do admit that the latest Gnome has done some stupid things to some of my old favorites. Gedit, for example, has been incredibly dumbed down. There's no shortcut key for "save as"! And much useful stuff is now hidden in a hamburger, and you actually need to tweak it to make stuff show up there.

  • If Satya is listening, my next machine was going to be a Windows box, but this is the fastest way to lose my business as a developer.

  • Never saw these adds, as I disabled it all. But that's ridiculous.

  • I'm staying on W7 until extended paid support ends (W10 doesn't do anything for me functionality-wise.) W7 is incidentally the only MS product I ever paid money for (student copy of Pro for $30)

    Then I'm switching to Linux.

    Ads on individual websites I can tolerate, but not in an OS.

  • Screnshotted this some weeks ago: http://geekpic.net/pm-WMNY1S.html It appears something like 10% of the times when I search for Chrome or Firefox. I find it shameful

  • First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

    If nothing else convinced people Firefox is back, this should tip the scale.

  • I’d also note that ten years ago this would be actual news.

    People just don’t care because Windows 10 is stable and Microsoft is probably the least evil, most admired, corporation on the planet.

    “Still bitching about Microsoft 2003? Try the new 2020 Microsoft!”

  • Purely from the meme perspective, I think the "Still using X ? Y is here" phrase has some value. Sort of like those jokes about how if IE can ask you to be the default browser, you can do X.

  • What's funny about this is they seem like they're way behind the times. A long time ago I switched to Firefox... it got worse (comparatively), and I switched to Chrome for everything, a long time ago.

    Google started disabling and neutering things like ad blocking, enforcing rules and settings with exceptions for Google domains. Firefox dramatically improved both its responsiveness and its security and privacy features. Last year, I switched back to Firefox.

    Why was Edge not a consideration? Because I use Macs everywhere except my gaming PC at home.

  • Why are they attacking Firefox instead of Chrome? It seems really weird.

  • Not even slightly surprised.

    When I got my Win 10 machine at work I typed "python" into my command line to see if it was installed and was shocked I didn't get a "command not found" message back, and confused when the MS Store popped up a second later. Win 10 ships with a python.exe that redirects to the MS Store and they hide in a place that makes its tough to remove from the path.

    When I got Win 10 at home I got to the shady telemetry opt-out page and immediate switched the install to debian.

  • Windows 10 home is an active attack on the user and the enterprise version isn’t much better. I’m constantly shocked at how popular the OS continues to be.

  • This kind of stuff isn't new and has been going on for years.

    When I got a new laptop in 2017 I had a look at Windows 10 to see what it's like before I replaced it with Linux, and I got similar messages. I wrote a thing about it which has some screenshots: https://www.arp242.net/browsers-conflict-interest.html

  • Given that everything is Chrome nowadays and Firefox has a very small share of the market, this seems stupid.

    Maybe someone finished a task on the backlog from 2014.

  • I completely understand that this is not exactly what anyone wants to see in the Start menu or any other actively used feature of Windows. But I find this considerably less egregious than Microsoft buying Github, or "embracing" Linux, as if it only has the open source community's welfare at heart.

    Microsoft is a for-profit, public company. They will do anything and everything in their own self-interest and to please their shareholders. While I have certainly posted my disdain in the past, especially for the Github buyout, I put this squarely in the same vein as when Canonical put Amazon search ads in the Dash on Ubuntu. It was a mistake for Canonical then, and it's a mistake for Microsoft now. If Microsoft truly want to show they're different, then they can put ads where the ads belong -- in the Microsoft App Store, or on television or other streaming media.

    Still using Firefox? Of course, we are. And we will continue to do so.

  • Why Firefox? Chrome has a bigger market share to take. Edge is built on Chromium now so it should be a more familiar environment for Chrome users. Microsoft is in a position to compete with many of the integration features that make Chrome appealing to many users. Surely it makes more sense to target Chrome than Firefox.

  • Still using Windows? Many wonderful Linux distributions are here.

  • I'm gonna plug my favourite solution to most Win10 BS> Open shell. It does a decent job of turning the start menu / add platform back into a start menu.

    https://open-shell.github.io/Open-Shell-Menu/

  • If you think this is bad now, wait until you see when/if they gain market dominance again.

    This is just a sad fact of (at least, US) corporations. Stock price, stock price, stock price.

    It even afflicts our beloved Apple. They pull the same tactics but somehow get a pass, most of the time.

  • I think a big part of this is just human nature. Microsoft believes they have a superior browser. They have a large amount of influence due to their software platform. It's got to be super tempting to get the word out with your most direct means of advertising (in your product).

    I don't agree with it, but I understand it and even expect it. Recognizing this in other areas of life is super valuable, too. e.g. why is the dentist recommending X hipster toothpaste? Is it actually better? Or do they have a stake of some kind? Looking at your purchasing decisions in such a pessimistic (read: realistic) way can protect you from a lot of pseudo-science and other garbage you don't need in your life.

  • Still using Windows? Still using Office (360)? Still using GitHub?

    These aren't maybe exactly ripe for disruption, but since all of them have existed for ages now almost without any game-changing innovation these questions are very valid as well.

  • Is there a way to buy ad directly on Windows desktop yet? It will be very interesting for software promotion [irony].

    MS seems like don't care for desktop users 'cause monopoly. Seems like my decision to avoid their products was positive.

  • Just stop using it. I'm glad I have given it up a long time ago. It's like that person who keeps promising they will do better. They won't. Just stop wasting your time on Microsoft products.

  • "Microsoft loves open source".

  • I'm just wondering if this is Google pushing MS to do this, or if this is MS alone trying to make this happen. For all of the other MS branded products they push, I've never seen this for their other products.

    This really feels like Google pushing them somehow to do this. They really could've done this a ton of their other products and never have. The first "collaboration" with a known shady advertising company and then these start popping up?

    I can only conclude Google has a hand in this somehow.

  • I'm beginning to get tired of these shitbirds. Remember when "bad behavior" was bundling a web browser with your OS? How innocent we were.

  • Is it specifically anti-Firefox or anti-not-Edge?

    Is there a "Still using Chrome?" message, or a "Still using IE?".

    I don't really understand the reason for going after Firefox specifically. Going after Chrome would make more sense to me. Chrome has the biggest user base, and now that Edge is based on Chromium, they can get users to switch without having them change their habits too much.

  • Ads built into an OS is such a massive antipattern.

  • I recently upgraded a Windows 7 installation to Windows 10. There was both Thunderbird and Firefox installed, of each one version.

    After the upgrade, Firefox asked to be the default browser (first idiotic change by the Windows team) and then didn't identify the existing Firefox installation and only listed Edge and IE as a selection (second mishap).

    Time for another round of regulations.

  • It's back! The good old days of Micro$loth!

  • They have a pretty good browser again, and this looks more like a play to get more bing search in front of more people. They make a lot of money with everly little % increases in add display. I am not sure I feel this is different then Google trying to get you to browser switch when visiting their search site in Firefox or Edge.

  • I'm interested in why anyone "needs" Chrome for work. My only thoughts are that they aren't admin and are forced to use it, or that FF historically didn't play well with corporate SSO. As of the past few months, however, that problem has mostly gone away.

    Is there anything Chrome can do that FF just can't?

  • How many times does Microsoft need to get slapped with an anti-trust on this specific issue to learn their lesson?

  • I wonder if anti-ads actually aren't allowed where I live (in NL), or whether we just think they are below us.

  • Just for kicks, I tried using internet explorer for a few weeks a while back. It seemed like every Google property was constantly prompting me to switch to Chrome. I mention this not to defend Microsoft, whose behavior here it intolerable, but to point out that this kind of thing is unfortunately common.

  • For all the good they are doing, you'd wonder there's some alterior motive. Reminded me to re-read this article: http://pedrocr.pt/text/microsofts-love-of-linux/

  • Microsoft's marketing teams have been crap, well, forever. They somehow always fail to make the public aware of their coolest features, while at the same time doing slimy stuff like this. I do sometimes wonder if they intentionally try to sabotage the company.

  • This kind of stuff is exactly why I'm not "upgrading" from Windows 7 to 10.

  • Firefox is like a Toyota; it sometimes lacks the latest bells and whistles but it’s always been reliable and generally cares about your safety.

    Microsoft is pushing hard on Edge to get more users to use Bing and more Bing users means more search ad revenue.

  • I have to wonder who is responsible for this bs. I admire several aspects of Microsoft, but then things like this appear. It would be ok (barely) to promote the browser in the OS, but to mention a competitor explicitly is just bad.

  • Why to attack, rather mention good things about the new product and off we go. we give power back to user hands for to decide. I guess some amount persuasion is required but with facts why to switch rather than blunt comment.

  • Still using Xsomthing? That was so two months ago. Things move fast in the fashion cough software world. Meanwhile our OS has a pseudo terminal layer, and we are using x86 processors...

  • I like Firefox, better logo

  • This one simple ad destroyed any goodwill I have towards Microsoft.

  • For a company that cares so much about developers, they should have known better than to mess with the sacred cow that is Firefox.

  • Just when you think that Microsoft has learned to sit quiet when Google is busy messing up.

    Nope. Not this time either. Have to keep up with Google.

  • Here comes new Microsoft, same as old Microsoft.

  • I've almost never seen such an over reaction to something in my entire life. Suggested apps are something you can turn off, and they have had suggested apps for a while. People keeps saying Microsoft shouldn't do passive aggressive ads? How do you think Firefox and Chrome (Google still does this in Google search, and you can't turn it off?) People are not as tech literate as you think, some people have no idea that Edge now runs on Chromium.

  • Not cool MS. Stunts like these will take a toll on TRUST! Why don't you target Chrome! Which is a bigger evil!?

  • Good thing for them the CEO is brown now, Ballmer caught more shit for just wanting to attract developers.

  • Not as bad as the one they put over the top of a pinned chrome icon on the start menu a few times.

  • still using Windows?

  • I just installed and ran Firefox. I was presented with a page of ads:

    https://i.imgur.com/HiS8k1L.png

    Note that the "top sites" aren't my top sites. They're ads. And then there's an ad at the bottom.

  • Does Microsoft intend to at least open source this new Chromium-based Edge?

  • The title seems misleading... how is saying, "still using firefox" Anti-firefox?

    It's just a fact that firefox hit its prime in terms of market share long ago. It's now at what like 4% market share and falling? Hell, 'Samsung internet' is about to pass it up.

  • Some sleep deprived developer typed firefox instead of internet explorer.

  • And they are breaking chrome each time they update windows now.

  • "Microsoft supports Open Source now!" /s

  • I think Microsoft has every right to suggest their own browser.

    Chrome does it. Firefox does it. You have to opt out of the reminder. So you have to opt out of Start menu ads.

    Big deal.

    Can we focus on something slighty less trivial please?

  • Will this even moving the needle on Chrome users?

  • MS is still sour they lost the browser wars?

  • I am using firefox and I love it so much!

  • "still using Firefox?"

    no, still using Chrome ;)

  • Another reason to get an LTSB license.

  • Does it also do the same for Chrome?

  • Would anyone bat an eye if, say, Thunderbird had a thing saying "Still using IE? Try Firefox."

  • it is a complete overreaction, unless everything you do an an overation.

  • > Many of those who commented in the linked reddit thread actually praise Microsoft Edge, explaining that they already installing the new browser and it’s just as good as Chrome or Firefox. And of course, many remind that it’s possible to disable suggestions in the Start menu to block such “ads” from showing up again.

    Gotta wonder if that’s astroturfing.

  • Those idiots at Mozilla have driven away there power users and third party developers.. with all there hair brained choices over the years... Fuck Em

    Right now is the only choice is which Chromium clone you want to use.. Frankly Vivaldi shits and pisses on all of them.

  • As they should.

    I installed FF yesterday. Installed bullshits about privacy and once you're done and run it, FF opens a tab in which it tells you they spy on you. Screw them.

  • Who can I send an email to in the EU who's willing to investigate this? There's got to be some institution that gives a shit.

  • Fuck no to Microsoft

  • M$ worst company ever!

  • This is exactly why I switched to Mac and no longer use Windows for Point of Sale and NVR installs.

  • "Ads in a paid-for OS!?!"

    Did you buy it and own it, or did you license it?

  • It's not anti-Firefox. It's anti-the-other-browser-that-you-use. It doesn't bother me at all. There are other, more serious things big corporations can do that make me worry.

  • This will be unpopular but I don't care - I see nothing shady. They're promoting their product. In the era when we're lied to at every corner of internet, I see nothing wrong with Microsoft promoting their new and AWESOME browser.

    Sadly, despite my love for Mozilla and Firefox, Edge is superior browser for me. It looks better, it works faster, it uses less memory and its developer console is much snappier, detailed and I am used to working with it. I'm sure there are people who would say the same about Firefox.

    I would love for Firefox to be the best browser, both technically and subjectively. But it isn't (yet, and again - for ME).

    Having hated Microsoft for a long time and having thought of Google as godsend, my opinion has changed in 2020. Microsoft did some amazing things for OSS community and for us web developers (Typescript, VSCode, Edge, Github.. I can stop here but there's more).

    I actually recommend Edge to other people. The wording Microsoft chose might not be the best, but what are they supposed to do? Do nothing? What would the titles be then? "Trillion dollar company inept in promoting their latest and best product. Shareholders stumped."

    By the way, the site that reports the issue (softpedia) loads ads and unwanted cookies. Using the same SJW logic, could I discredit their misleading title based on the source of their revenue?