Noah Kagan and the Faceless Bitch slide
(I was the guy in front scraping hot sauce off my computer/bag/clothes after you threw the bottle up front)
Totally understand why you would be offended by the slide. Noah is a bit edgier than most, and he was likely going for entertainment value. It was not in the best taste to do it.
From what I know of Noah Kagan, he seems to be a good guy that goes out of his way to help people in the scene. If all you got out of his talk was to type faster, I think you missed out on a lot. There are lots of great points that were made that may have been lost in presentation for you. Also not sure if he fully understood why you wanted to explain why you threw the bottle, but I'll let him defend himself on that.
I'm all for being upfront and honest about things (sort of what my last post was about [0]) so its good to have these things out there. Its much more effective than throwing hotsauce at innocent bystanders :-)
0: http://frankdenbow.tumblr.com/post/7269203638/on-honesty-in-...
This is a sad story. I'm really genuinely bothered when I hear about guys that persist in thinking that this sort of presentation is cool or appropriate. I am sorry that you're upset about it, and I feel badly for the event organizer. This is the part that people will remember, not all of the amazing stuff. Conference organizing is surprisingly thankless.
That said, you have to admit that the hot sauce aspect of this story is really funny. What the heck did you hope to accomplish? If you'd actually hit him, he'd be legally entitled to press charges.
Did you end up apologizing to the attendees that got splashed, or offer to cover the cleaning bill for the conference organizer?
Sexism on stage or not, if you'd hit my shirt and my computer, I'd be pissed off.
Much like with Matt Aimonetti's "CouchDB: Perform like a pr0n star" presentation[0], the male-dominated nature of the tech industry sadly often makes men think that it's acceptable to say and do sexist things at industry conferences. It's already hard enough to get women into technology, and things like this only make it even harder.
0: http://omploader.org/vNWNrNg/gogaruco-couchdb-090418194027-p...
Thoughts:
-She threw the bottle and it landed halfway. Was it an inaccurate assessment of Noah to assume she might not catch it? Looks like she proved him right in that regard, at least.
-The picture wasn't 'scantily clad' or derogatory, and was unidentifiable. There is a fair chance it wasn't even a picture of an ex.
-There was some context, albeit I believe the main point was to keep people awake. 6 hours of speakers is a lot.
-Maybe I'm thinking too much into it, but I'm fairly sure 'type faster' was analogous to 'little shit can add up'.
-I've always considered 'bitch' to be a female specific version of 'dick'. Both being fairly synonymous with 'asshole'.
-She very much objectively f'ed up some of Frank's things. I was sitting between them and the bottle flew directly over my head. It is kind of a joke to get mad at someone's immaturity and respond in-kind, damaging a bystanders property.
Long story short- Noah is blunt. Maybe douchey. But throwing a tantrum and making a mess hardly gives you the higher ground.
For those who attended MicroConf, this post is by Anne Gunn, the woman who threw back the bottle of hot sauce during Kagan's presentation. Unfortunately, it didn't quite make it and landed on some audience members.
EDIT: For clarity. (Anne wasn't trying to hit Kagan. She was just trying to return the bottle the same way Kagan had been distributing them.)
I've dealt with Kagan in the past and without going into too much detail, had a very negative impression. A shameless self promoter, who gave off the impression that he had no integrity.
I'm sorry to say, but I agree that Kagan's a total douche, both for this and previous remarks online. The amount of posts about sexism is starting to annoy the hell out of me, but it does deserve attention.
I read the entire thing thinking OP was male. It perplexed me why Kagan responded with a curt "No" when asked whether he wanted to understand the episode.
Then I saw from the first comment that OP's name is Anne - and suddenly saw why Kagan had been a jerk with her.
His slide was offensive and doesn't belong at a conference, but neither does petulant behavior such as throwing a bottle of hot sauce at the speaker in the middle of his or her presentation.
Some rather passive aggressive writing in there attempting to belittle Kagan (who I suspect couldn't care less). But this stood out to me as an indicator of the poster's disdain:
"Apparently, in the small but influential industry of high tech companies and service providers who cater to high tech startup companies (yes, I’m serious, there is such an industry), Noah Kagan is a bit of a rock star."
Yeah, there is such an industry, but the faux incredulity only serves to weaken the other points made.
tl;dr the author attended MicroConf2011, enjoyed the overall experience, but disagreed with (aspects of) Noah Kagan's presentation and ended up throwing a bottle of hot sauce at the presenter.
The rambling, ranting writing style removed all of the author's credibility in my eyes. The writing focused on the author's actions and feelings, rather than the facts of the day. The fact that the author threw a bottle of hot sauce does not help portray a level-headed narrator either. The author may be providing a legitimate case and outcry against sexism, but when the author reduces it to matter of their own ego and hurt feelings, I do not give it any credence.
New Rule: If you're going to show a sexy, naked, or scantily clad woman in a slide, you damn well better be making a self deprecating joke.
If you show a derogatory slide about an innocent bystander (such as an ex-girlfriend) whatever you say about them is a reflection on you, not them. (Of course, making fun of your legitimate competition is always a risk, as well.)
I was sitting right in front of Anne at the conference, so I didn't see her throw the hot sauce, but I did see the bottle explode all over the stage and the people in front of me. My first response was to shut my MacBook Air. ;-)
An awkward tension hung in the air like a big stink bomb once everyone realized what had just happened. Noah managed to brush off the incident and continue his talk as if nothing happened. I'm sure I couldn't have continued so coolly if I were in his place.
I doubt any of us at the conference understand what was going through Anne's head at the time. I was confused by the whole incident, and figured she didn't want the hot sauce and was trying to playfully toss it back.
As for Noah's presentation, I thought parts of it were very low-class and out of place. My opinion of him as a person was lower at the end of his talk. That said, I did gain some valuable insights that have helped me focus better and improve my business.
Oh for crying out loud. Someone got angry at a picture of an ex-girlfriend with "bitch" on her face -- WHY?
It might be a bit distasteful, but what the fucking hell is offensive about it unless you were the ex?
If I put a photo up of my ex-boss and it had the word "cock" on his face would males in the crowd start getting really offended and start throwing bottles at stage? If so, I think the problem is in the audience. This has nothing to do with sexism.
This is worth a read for anyone presenting: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Incidents
I won't go so far as to condone the OPs actions, but I can understand why women in tech might be at a breaking point.
This is going to be a very biased comment because Noah is a close personal friend of mine.
Noah will generally be the same guy while talking to your parents as he is having a beer with close friends: direct, open, and sometimes irreverent. This is shocking to many people in our (to use the author's term) "post-polite" society, but this is precisely why Noah is one of my favorite people in the world. When you're talking to Noah, you know that he will tell you exactly what he thinks, and he'll have fun doing it.
I owe a tremendous portion of any success I've had to Noah. In addition to being a brilliant marketer, Noah has taught me to ask for forgiveness and not for permission - something every entrepreneur needs to be reminded of every once in awhile. He's always been a huge help to me. A mere 2-minute conversation with him can be pure gold, so it's a shame that the author was too upset to absorb what was (just positing - I wasn't there) probably a great presentation.
On one hand, I personally would not have used "the bitch slide" in a presentation. There are not enough women in tech, and while I wouldn't compare the word "bitch" to a racial slur, it is just sexist enough to ensure that at least some of the few women who are in the audience will feel alienated when used within the context of a male-dominated conference.
I'm sure that Noah doesn't really think that his ex-girlfriend is a bitch. His current girlfriend is the only serious relationship I've known him to have in the past 5 years, so he may have just made up this ex for the sake of joking. In actuality, Noah is one of the more emotionally mature and communicative people I've ever met, so he's perfectly capable of understanding that relationships are two-way streets.
On the other hand, the hypersensitivity the author demonstrates is exactly the kind of buttoned-up bourgeois bullshit that made me want to work for myself. I want the freedom to be myself. Sexuality, relationships, and the ambivalence that comes from all of it are a part of being a human, and success in entrepreneurship is about as close as one can come to self-actualization (at least in America).
The line:
> the small but influential industry of high tech companies and service providers who cater to high tech startup companies (yes, I’m serious, there is such an industry)
gives away that the author was clearly out of her element. This isn't the world of stodgy HR policies and training manuals. We make it up as we go along, we test the boundaries, and sometimes we make mistakes just to find out where those boundaries are. I'll be damned if a flame post and an errant Sriracha bottle is going to take that away from us.
Curious, if the speaker were female, and had a slide where she had 'asshole' written over some guy's face (Let's use Noah's as an example), would there be a similar level of outrage?
As much as it was obviously distasteful no matter the context, I'd find having to listen to him for a half hour more offensive than the image -- worse, knowing I had paid to attend a conference to listen to said drivel.
i first asked for a while back, but i think we need it more and more: i would pay good money for a system that tracked people not as friends, but as arseholes. an application that correlates identities across sites and greys out their comments and the like. in "real life" i can pick my friends and drop the arseholes. online i have no idea who "Thom" (see comments on that article) might be, and no way of flagging that same user on, say stackoveflow, when they are asking for help. we need some way to make karma work better online.
Kagan's current girlfriend should be the one offended. If he's willing to call an ex a bitch she is in danger of him defaming her in a similar way if they split. And they seem to share a professional environment which could be detrimental to her career. Guys who publicly call exes bitches generally consider all exes "bitches" because of their self centered view of why the relationship failed.
"No Cindy, you're special. My ex Jane was total bitch."
"No Jane, you're special. My ex Stephanie was a total bitch."
"No Stephanie you're special. My ex Anne was a total bitch."
If he's capable of calling the ex a bitch in public he's capable of the same with his current girlfriend.
Request: next time anyone writes about a sexist talk by a clueless startup rockstar, keep it to 5 paragraphs. I don't need to spend 20 minutes reading filler just to hear about Sriracha throwing and a slide of a guy's ex-girlfriend.
The faceless bitch slide? Maybe a little offensive and a touch douchey. But breaking a bottle of hot sauce on people and then writing this rant? Bitchy.
Get over yourself.
Whether or not we (the mostly male HN community) think it's "offensive" is beside the point.
Are we going to encourage more women to get into tech if we call them "faceless bitches?" Does that create a welcoming atmosphere?
I certainly don't think so. We sit back and wonder "gawrsh, why aren't there more women hackers/programmers/tech entrepreneurs?"
This. This is why.
It occurs to me that OP might be more upset about receiving the bottle of hot sauce than she was about the images. Sure, the writhing woman and the bitch slide were offensive, but it wasn't until Kagan ostensibly attempted to marginalize her by rewarding her with the hot sauce that she really got angry.
Money quote: "What I should have done was stand up, walk the bottle of hot sauce back up to the stage, point out to Noah Kagan that he had not earned the right to give ME a token of recognition..."
That's really what this is all about: "boys being boys" and not acknowledging that there's anything wrong with it, despite obvious indications (like an audience member taking a photo of your offensive slide) that there is indeed something wrong with it.
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I attended Microconf, and I sat on the third row aisle. Anne was sitting directly behind me. Thus, I had a ringside seat for the hot sauce incident. I am somewhat surprised to learn that Anne was enraged at the picture, as I was not detecting that at all. I need to work on that. I do specifically remember that Anne received the hot sauce and clearly did not want it, so she started pumping her arm preparing to return it. Alas, after three or four pumps, Noah had not noticed, and I figured she would return it otherwise. But suddenly it was released, without enough force to make it to the side of the stage where she was aiming. My impression at the time was that Anne was being playful in the same way as Noah, trying to give it back, but that was not what was going through Anne's head. If I had known she was so upset, I would have discussed it with her. As it was, I just thought it was a playful way to get into the flow of the talk that had backfired, and best not bring it up with her.
As for Noah, I was looking forward to his Microconf talk, as I listen to most Mixergy interviews, and Noah is a huge resource for Andrew's recruiting new interviewees. It is interesting how Noah has briliant ideas but seems to have some impulse control. For example, sending underwear to people he wants to meet, to get their attention - brilliant! Showing his underwear during a Mixergy interview - a mistake. (Glad I was audio only there...)
The faceless bitch was hardly the only sexual innuendo from Noah. He had had some blowback from his ASmartBear guest post recently, where he started a blog post in which he mentions, in passing, waking up next to his naked girlfriend. In his very first comments at Microconf, he brings up how everyone thought that blog post was about his sexual adventures, when of course it was about burnout. Except the out of place denial practically proves the rule - Noah is a very sexual guy, and it oozes from him. It almost defines him. Out of the 120 Microconf attendees, who brought their (very attractive) girlfriend? Only Noah Kagan. Who referred to his previous girlfriend as a bitch, live, in front of his current girlfriend? Noah Kagan.
Some of these sexual references go over the line, and make tech conferences a hostile place for women. But I think sometimes we doth protest too much at one of the fundamental forces driving entrepreneurship, and that is sex. Napoleon Hill, writing in the 1930s, devoted an entire chapter to "The Mystery of Sex Transmutation", and how the most successful entrepreneurs can take the enormous energy available as the sex drive and convert it into useful work. Yes, the vague idea that we can win the hot chick will drive many, many long dark nights of building a company. I keep suggesting to Andrew Warner, our modern version of Napoleon Hill, to explore this powerful drive, and how successful entrepreneurs harness it to their advantage.
I'm late to this party. I hit Publish on my Noah Kagan post, headed off for some vacation, and came back to a week of getting product out the door. By the time I realized how much interest the piece had stirred up, I was thoroughly behind the curve. I didn't want to jump in till I'd had a chance to go through the whole thread, which I finally got to do yesterday.
Don't worry; I'm not going to try to dredge this one up with responses to a lot of different comments, just one, I think.
For anyone who might still have an ounce of interest, I did try to respond to some of the comments and questions that were, more or less, directed to me, over on my blog[0].
All I can say, from this my first real encounter with Hacker News, is, "Wow. This is a remarkable place. Such passion and energy, so much erudition, and so many flames."
ag
0: http://sherprog.com/2011/07/24/kudos-regrets-apologies-lesso...
Opportunists tend to objectify many things.
I'll tell you, it's not so much the slide itself that that was upsetting -- although he was essentially begging for someone to say "orgasm" and that was a sad sight to see; the audience was way ahead of him and didn't want to partake -- but that he carried himself like a jerk, wanted people like him because he was a jerk, and ultimately had no message in his presentation. It was hard to watch, and not because I'm a woman, but because an hour is a long time to listen to someone talk excitedly about nothing.
To me this sounds like a delirious rambling about someone who is embarassed to have thrown hot sauce on some people.
I don't know who Noah Kagan is.
As a tangent, what would be the gender neutral equivalent of "Bitch"? The male equivalent would be "bastard".
At the first Ignite San Diego, one presenter gave a talk comparing working in the tech industry with being a pick-up artist. I think it was pretty comparable to this presentation, but I remember the general opinion being more that it was more in extreme poor taste than straight-up offensive.
I also remember thinking it was a little ironic how many people threw the word "douchebag" around afterward.
Admittedly, I don't have quite the same perspective since I'm a man, but as a minority I try to imagine if someone used some word like "chink" or talked about "peeing in your Coke" in a presentation in an effort to be edgy. Unless it was said in a patently hateful way, I probably would think of the speaker as stupid rather than malicious.
It's also possible that growing up in Hawaii (where ethnic jokes are socially acceptable, and generally made without malice) has made me take a "it's probably a joke unless proven otherwise" default reaction.
This reminds me of the kerfuffle over the Drunken Batman slide "Black People Don't Use Macs" http://www.flickr.com/photos/rtmfd/1097058025/
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I'm late to this party. I hit Publish on my Noah Kagan post, headed off for some vacation, and came back to a week of getting product out the door. By the time I realized how much interest the piece had stirred up, I was thoroughly behind the curve. I didn't want to jump in till I'd had a chance to go through the whole thread, which I finally got to do yesterday.
Don't worry; I'm not going to try to dredge this one up with responses to a lot of different comments, just one, I think.
For anyone who might still have an ounce of interest, I did try to respond to some of the comments and questions that were, more or less, directed to me, over on my blog[0].
All I can say, from this my first real encounter with Hacker News, is, "Wow. This is a remarkable place. Such passion and energy, so much erudition, and so many flames."
ag
0: http://sherprog.com/2011/07/24/kudos-regrets-apologies-lesso...
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The OP does not seem to realise that the "girlfriend" comment from Kagan could have been a joke.
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