Ask HN: What to do about a strike?

HN Community,

I'm a grad student in applied math (for my masters) and I work as a TA to help pay the bills. Now the pay is pretty pathetic (about $1000/month), but its enough to get by. The union that represents student employees like myself decided yesterday to strike tomorrow (wednesday). They are bargaining for "Fee Waivers" for all TA-like employees (so we don't have to pay 1/3 of our yearly pay to pay tuition. )

Now I would love a fee waiver, but I'm not so sure I'm down with striking. I don't really understand why they are asking us to strike and I don't know how I feel about unions in general.

Now, obviously I'll make a decision tomorrow if I "strike" (i don't teach tomorrow anyway), but I was wondering how the HN community feels about unions and a strike like this.

The link to the bargaining news I have: http://www.uaw4123.org/news/bargaining.php

  • Read this thread about negotiating leverage:

    http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=387027

    What a union does is replaces a bunch of independent actors with a single monolithic organization. You may be a replaceable cog in the wheel and hence unable to bargain for more, but all TAs together probably can't be replaced. So the union can negotiate a better deal for all of them if they strike together.

    Like all competition-elimination strategies, this decreases economic efficiency. However, you shouldn't feel too bad about this: so do corporations, and any other form of organization. People live with big corporations, even if they are ultimately worse both for consumers and for employees.

    When unions have struck themselves out of existence, it's usually because the statement "But they'd certainly care if all X no longer worked for them" is no longer true. Most Americans don't give a damn about Detroit and would happily go on with their lives if all 3 American automakers and their workers just disappeared. (My parents haven't bought an American car since the 1960s.) So when the UAW tries to bargain, they just end up taking the corporations down with them.

    Unless you work for a really sucky university, I don't think you need to worry about that.

  • I used to work for a union. Now in grad school, live with the grad student union treasurer.

    1. your pay is very pathetic even for TAs.

    2. You can find how much your officers and staff are getting paid here: http://www.dol.gov/esa/olms/regs/compliance/rrlo/lmrda.htm At my school, officers get a $50 honorarium month, and staff get nonprofit compensation (low pay, decent benefits, and the thanks of thousands).

    3. Some one described them as a "mob of idiots." A democratically run organization of graduate students is a "mob of idiots"? What does that make the United States?

    4. Management gets the union they deserve. The big 3 have disfunctional management so they get a disfunctional union as well.

    5. The Big 3 have been pissing away all their profits while ignoring their building obligations for decades. It's management's job to make sure the budget works. You don't get paid to make those decisions.

    6. It's a matter of priorities. You aren't a priority (and a football stadium or refurbished admin offices are) unless you make yourself one.

    7. The time to start worrying about this is way sooner in the bargaining process. Don't need to be on the negotiating team, but know who they are and tell them what you do and don't want. If you don't participate, don't expect to get what you want.

    8. Union internationals typically have very little control over union locals. SEIU being the exception.

    9. There are crap unions, though they are far rarer than the WSJ editorial page would have you believe. Unions with active membership are almost never corrupt, self-serving or mismanaged, just like any healthy democratic organization.

    10. I have noticed a pattern of common but very short strikes in academia. I suspect Presidents feel they have to demonstrate fiscal restraint, but the vast majority would much rather move on and get back to education. Except corrupt self-serving bastards: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Joel_Trachtenberg

    Hilarious and sad note: your strike pay is equal to your TA pay. This is very uncommon.

  • Unions are a power structure. When they are weak, they are good, because they in fact help workers who are getting screwed. When they become powerful, they become bad, because their leadership acts as all leadership does, and seeks to entrench its power and privilege. You are kind of screwed, because you are caught between two power structures who both can punish you in various ways.

  • If you approach your management independently will they negotiate a custom agreement with you or will they laugh? If collective bargaining is your only option it makes sense to maximize the union's leverage and to help steer the union in the proper direction.

  • You do know that you can have a role in the negotiations? If you start attending the union meetings you will find out very quickly whether you think the unions position is reasonable or not.

    If you decide to break the strike, the right thing to do is to withdraw from the union first. Although, I would point out that a strike like this is only one step in a long drawn out negotiation, it would not be happening if the negotiating team thought they had a better alternative.

  • So, if you're not sure how you feel about unions what have you done as an individual to improve your pay and how has it worked out? If they're saying no to the union, I'm guessing either you've done nothing or if you did ask for more money yourself, they simply laughed at you.

    Given that, if you choose to cross the picket line, what you're saying to your employer is that you're happy with your pay which you say is not the case. You're also making the statement that you either think your co-workers who will be striking are either malcontents or greedy, unless you know they're getting significantly less money that you for the same job.

    Your decision is simply whether or not you believe your and co-worker's current compensation is fair, or if the deal the union is proposing better represents your market value.

  • $1000 a month for an applied math masters sucks. I am usually against unions but you should strike!

    Being a TA is much different than being an auto worker. Normal employees have a long time to bargain. You move around the industry, there gets to be a market for a job, and a fair price gets created. But as a TA, you can't really move between different universities. Plus, any individual is only a TA for a few years, after which your salary will be totally unrelated. So nobody really has that much incentive to negotiate hard. As a result, universities typically have a much stronger negotiation position and can give extremely low wages.

    There is no danger that TA unions will become strong enough to cripple universities. This is totally different than car manufacturers. Strike!

  • Perhaps the UAW can do for American higher education what it's done for the auto industry.

  • Crossing a picket line is not the right way to take a principled stand against unions. If you don't like unions, then don't take a job in a union shop.

    I'm surprised that nobody else has mentioned the social consequences of the decision you are considering. If you cross the picket line you are a 'scab' and some of your colleagues, especially if they come from a working class background, will consider you to be a traitor.

    The TA-like employees you work with probably do not resemble the stereotypical angry union truck driver or dock worker but some of them may come from countries where trade union organizers are routinely arrested, kidnapped, tortured, and murdered.

    Otherwise polite and reasonable people can take a lot of offense to a decision like this.

  • Be an individual and do what you think is most rational.

    No chance in hell I'd let a mob of idiots influence my decision making process.

  • By and large, unions serve no useful purpose these days. They exist for the benefit of the higher-ups (union management) to make money off of the members (think ponzi scheme).

    My guess is that you had no choice but to join the union when you took the job.

  • If you're asking about whether or not to leave grad school for something that pays, I'd say this: excluding medical school and elite law/business programs, don't go into debt for graduate school, ever. You're much better off in the long run if you can get a decent job (which may not be easy right now).

    This is just a matter of general principle. You should do graduate school only if you can do so with savings-neutral compensation at a reasonable (low, but comfortable) lifestyle. Otherwise, you're getting a harsh signal from the market. If you can't get a university to pay you ~$15k as a grad student, you have no hope of getting them to cough up $70k for you as a tenure-track professor.

    $1000/month with 1/3 going to tuition? You're getting screwed. TAs simply should not be paying tuition. Professors' kids don't.